Proposed System

"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...

snip a whole lot of J. Clarke's argument with a man who knows his stuff

"Stability" is not the only issue. Are you completely sure that
calcuations performed on one of your undervolted systems are accurate?
If so, how did you determine this?

Prime95 torture-test. The widely accepted standard.
--
~misfit~



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"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...
Do you understand that making modifications to increase the longevity of
systems which are normally disposed of as obsolete before they quit
working is a waste of time and effort?

Ah, the historical argument. Most of today's sytems will continue to be
usable for many years, decades even, as long as you're not talking about
dediacted gaming machines that will be used for the latest and greatest
new-release games. This is not so true of systems produced last century.
--
~misfit~


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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:27:13 GMT, CBFalconer
wrote:

kony wrote:

... snip ...

Do you understand the relationship between voltage and heat
production, energy usage? Where do you think that energy comes
from? The motherboard's onboard regulation circuits, including

Correct me if I am wrong (I haven't seen any schematics) but since
todays power supplies provide only 5 and 3.3 volts, any reduced
voltages for the CPU must come from on-board regulators. This
means that the net power reduction with undervoltaged CPUs is
strictly proportional to V, rather than V*V, because some of the
dissipation is shifted to the regulator.

We can treat the CPU and onboard SMPS as separate subsystems each with
their own voltage and current requirements. The CPU still sees a power
reduction proportional to the V² reduction. The motherboard's onboard
regulation subsystem ALSO sees a separate reduction, possibly
approaching proportionality to the V² reduction, but I think there may
be a few more variables involved based on the design of the SMPS.


It may even be worse, if undervolting requires using the 5 V
source rather than the 3.3 V source. It would be very hard to
design a reliable regulator with less than 0.5V drop. In this
area I doubt that a switcher would have any advantage over a
series regulator, in fact it might be inferior.

The (main) power supply rail suppling the motherboard onboard
regulation circuitry is fixed by the [ATX connector and connected
copper traces to the regulator], can not change based on the
(undervolted) Vcore. It's always 5V or 12V... more often 5V for older
systems and some current AMD boards, but other, more often newer AMD
motherboards use 12V. All P4 platforms now use 12V.

There is never a situation (AFAIK) where needed Vdrop is less than
~1.5V, and usually quite a bit higher when for CPU Vcore. Typically
the total CPU Vcore drop would be in the range of ~3.25-10.75V

The Vcore that can be stability produced (assuming proper design) is
any in the range supported by the switching regulator controller used.
It is a programmable controller, an example of which can be seen he
http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4765.pdf

Of course this is the physical limitation of the hardware
(motherboard), but doesn't necessarily mean the motherboard (by
jumpers or BIOS settings) will allow the user to change, specify all
(or even any) of these voltages.


Dave

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:31:55 +1300
"~misfit~" wrote:


"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:08:57 +1300
"~misfit~" wrote:


"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...

snip a whole lot of J. Clarke's argument with a man who knows
his stuff

"Stability" is not the only issue. Are you completely sure that
calcuations performed on one of your undervolted systems are
accurate? If so, how did you determine this?

Prime95 torture-test. The widely accepted standard.

And how was that validated? What agency published the standard?

The agency of don't be a ****wit. It is the standard of system
tweakers and overclockers world-wide.

And you would trust your life to "the standard of system tweakers and
overclockers world-wide"? Goody.

sigh But I bet you keep arguing. Always with questions, never with
facts.--

Can you say "shifting the burden of proof"?

~misfit~


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--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:59:06 GMT, (Thunder9)
wrote:

Quit wasting your time, kony.



Regards,
Thunder9

LOL.
That's exactly what I was thinking... clicked send right in the
middle of a sentence.

Yes you have if you think i'm going to spend money on a cpu and the turn it down so it doesnt overheat....
"kony" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:55:16 GMT, "JAD" wrote:

Undervoltage not only decreases heat, it lessens wear on the
motherboard, uses less energy overall, including a slight bit less to
re-cool the room the system is in during the warmer months. Given
Intel's path towards even hotter CPUs I expect we'll see more and more
people undervolting their CPUs.


You've lost your mind


Nope. Do you understand the relationship between voltage and heat
production, energy usage? Where do you think that energy comes from?
The motherboard's onboard regulation circuits, including the
capacitors. It's not only Taiwanese or other defective capacitors
that fail, they all do eventually, that rate depending on the stresses
on them... Talk to someone from a large volume PC shop, most have
plenty of systems coming in DOA... I get dead boards from a a few
regularly, replace the caps, they work like new again.


Dave

"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:08:57 +1300
"~misfit~" wrote:


"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...

snip a whole lot of J. Clarke's argument with a man who knows his
stuff

"Stability" is not the only issue. Are you completely sure that
calcuations performed on one of your undervolted systems are
accurate? If so, how did you determine this?

Prime95 torture-test. The widely accepted standard.

And how was that validated? What agency published the standard?

The agency of don't be a ****wit. It is the standard of system tweakers and
overclockers world-wide.

sigh But I bet you keep arguing. Always with questions, never with facts.
--
~misfit~


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"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:12:30 +1300
"~misfit~" wrote:


"J.Clarke" wrote in message
...
Do you understand that making modifications to increase the
longevity of systems which are normally disposed of as obsolete
before they quit working is a waste of time and effort?

Ah, the historical argument. Most of today's sytems will continue to
be usable for many years, decades even, as long as you're not talking
about dediacted gaming machines that will be used for the latest and
greatest new-release games. This is not so true of systems produced
last century.--

And you base this opinion on what information?

Intelligence. Observation. Deduction. Hands-on experience coupled with age.
But I'm sure that you, lacking somewhat in most of those need 'hard facts'.

Yep, Ad Hominum argument. The only way to deal with someone who argues
whilst acting like a child saying "But why mommy? Why?"
--
~misfit~


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Top posting fixed.

"JAD" wrote in message
ink.net...
"kony" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:55:16 GMT, "JAD" wrote:

Undervoltage not only decreases heat, it lessens wear on the
motherboard, uses less energy overall, including a slight bit less to
re-cool the room the system is in during the warmer months. Given
Intel's path towards even hotter CPUs I expect we'll see more and more
people undervolting their CPUs.


You've lost your mind


Nope. Do you understand the relationship between voltage and heat
production, energy usage? Where do you think that energy comes from?
The motherboard's onboard regulation circuits, including the
capacitors. It's not only Taiwanese or other defective capacitors
that fail, they all do eventually, that rate depending on the stresses
on them... Talk to someone from a large volume PC shop, most have
plenty of systems coming in DOA... I get dead boards from a a few
regularly, replace the caps, they work like new again.

Yes you have if you think i'm going to spend money on a cpu and the
turn it down so it doesnt overheat....

Your money, your choice.
--
~misfit~



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On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:37:48 GMT, "JAD" wrote:


You've lost your mind


Nope. Do you understand the relationship between voltage and heat
production, energy usage? Where do you think that energy comes from?
The motherboard's onboard regulation circuits, including the
capacitors. It's not only Taiwanese or other defective capacitors
that fail, they all do eventually, that rate depending on the stresses
on them... Talk to someone from a large volume PC shop, most have
plenty of systems coming in DOA... I get dead boards from a a few
regularly, replace the caps, they work like new again.

Yes you have if you think i'm going to spend money on a cpu and the turn it down so it doesnt overheat....

Turn it down? Voltage reduction can occur without any underclocking.
The key is to choose the speed YOU want/need to run the CPU, and
giving it only enough voltage to retain stability at that speed, as
any additional voltage increase beyond that only serves to increase
heat output.

For example, earlier in this thread I mentioned a Palomino Athlon
XP1600 I had which was undervolted to 1.6V (from 1.75) and o'c to
1.6GHz.



Dave