so much for linux

Ruel Smith wrote:
Bill Turner wrote:

That's the fault of the hardware OEM, and it's beginning to shift
toward Linux's favor. The next 3 years should be good ones...

Not long after I noticed Usenet in about 1996, on one of my Internet
service providers help discussion groups, two group members were
discussing Linux. One called it the "Holy Grail" of operating
systems.

If you're going to assess blame, some of it must go to the
legions of Linux programmers who are not interested in writing
hardware drivers. Yes, I know the OEM's should do it, but if they
don't, the Linux community should.

No, OEM's should support their own hardware. Again, since you
haven't responded to the statement, shouldn't Windows
shareware/freeware programmers be concentrating on fixing all of
Windows backdoors and all the nasties that plague the OS? It only
seems to reason, following the similar logic you suggest for Linux
developers.

This in a nutshell, has been Linux' great flaw - nobody is in
charge. Nobody is willing or able to assign a task to someone,
unlike at a 'real' software house.

The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect
everything to work out of the box despite the lack of 3rd party
driver support. If you want driver support to run Linux on your
hardware, write the hardware manufacturer and ask them about
getting support for Linux.

While he (or she) is waiting, he can use Windows.

In all fairness, some people claim this is changing and maybe so.
I'll keep watching and see what happens. I would like Linux to
succeed, if only to keep Mr. Gates on his toes.

Supposedly, Linux has something like 10% marketshare, now. However,
I believe that's including corporate workstations. It still is a
significant enough number to make OEMs start, at least, looking at
the possiblity of supporting Linux.

"Somewhere, over the rainbow...la la la"

Windows marketshare has been over 90% for at least five years and has
continued rising.

We'll see how it goes.

Honestly, now that we have IBM, HP, Novell, and to a lesser degree,
Sun onboard, I think Linux has a very bright future.

One of the great flaws of Linux is blind optimism.

Actually, the problem is much deeper.

The real factors are network effects and a positive feedback loop.

Network effects forces you to use file formats your
friends/partners/colleagues use.

A positive feedback loop goes something like this.
1. Consumers by Windows computers because, among other reasons, so
many applications are available for Windows.
2. Programmers write for Windows because so many consumers buy it.
3. Goto 1.

That is why, without much effort, Windows remains pegged at the top
without risk of falling.

Forward-looking, I would agree that Windows has no future. But I
don't know how far in the future. Microsoft will keep things tied
down for as long as possible. Drawing from science-fiction, the
future with robots and stuff, I can see why open-source is the only
way to go. Simply put, people won't buy conniving/secretive robots.
So we go one way or the other. We either become a world
dominated/stagnated by corporations like Microsoft, or we use open-
source products.

By the way, for those who don't know, open-source does not mean
profitless. And to the protectionists, we don't need no stinking
Microsoft, there is more than enough high technology talent here in
the United States to take up the slack. The idea that talent doesn't
exist is a myth to lower wages through outsourcing.

Ruel Smith:

The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect everything
to work out of the box

Exactly. I do expect it to work out of the box, especially when Linux
advocates are touting it as the replacement for Windows. I expect it to
actually be able to replace Windows, but it can't.

Linux advocates seem to think they have to convince everyone to stop using
Windows and start using Linux, but they don't. Once Linux is a viable
replacement for Windows it will sell itself.
--
Mac Cool

Ruel Smith wrote:

David Maynard wrote:


I think its a fair statement. Sure, Linux runs on x86, but no one ever
claimed it worked on all x86 machines.

You're doing a clever song and dance around it but it's really quite
simple. Windows works on more than Linux does.


Not "out of the box", like so many claim. You likely need 3rd party drivers
to make your hardware work. Most hardware that works with Linux at all, is
included with the distro.

Besides my not being so sure Linux supports more 'out of the box' to begin
with that's, again, primarily a song and dance around the real issue as
being 'native' is of no value if the device you want to use isn't supported
and while you try to make 'third party drivers' sound like a 'negative'
they mean the device Linux can't use will work in Windows.

The fair description is that for 'supported' devices Linux might be a
teensy bit more convenient than the times Windows might require a third
party driver (usually for the newest devices and assuming Linux 'supports'
it was well: not a forgone conclusion) but using a third party driver for
Windows is a heck of a lot more useful than it being not supported at all,
as one can easily run into with Linux.

As a side note, I have yet to find a current Linux distribution that will
work properly on a Windows Domain using the configuration tools a typical
user would understand.

Ruel Smith wrote:

Bill Turner wrote:


That's the fault of the hardware OEM, and it's beginning to shift toward
Linux's favor. The next 3 years should be good ones...

________________________________________________ ___________

If you're going to assess blame, some of it must go to the legions of
Linux programmers who are not interested in writing hardware drivers.
Yes, I know the OEM's should do it, but if they don't, the Linux
community should.


No, OEM's should support their own hardware. Again, since you haven't
responded to the statement, shouldn't Windows shareware/freeware
programmers be concentrating on fixing all of Windows backdoors and all the
nasties that plague the OS? It only seems to reason, following the similar
logic you suggest for Linux developers.


This in a nutshell, has been Linux' great flaw - nobody is in charge.
Nobody is willing or able to assign a task to someone, unlike at a
'real' software house.


The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect everything to work
out of the box despite the lack of 3rd party driver support. If you want
driver support to run Linux on your hardware, write the hardware
manufacturer and ask them about getting support for Linux.



Most users are not on a 'quest for the holy Linux' and, yes, do want
whatever they get to work, and without having to become an O.S. expert.


snip

David Maynard wrote in
:

As a side note, I have yet to find a current Linux distribution that
will work properly on a Windows Domain using the configuration tools a
typical user would understand.

Linux != Windows
Windows == Windows

--
Lordy

Bill Turner wrote:

How is Joe Programmer going to fix
Windows even if he wanted to?

Good point.

Bill Turner wrote:

No, OEM's should support their own hardware. Again, since you haven't
responded to the statement, shouldn't Windows shareware/freeware
programmers be concentrating on fixing all of Windows backdoors and all
the nasties that plague the OS? It only seems to reason, following the
similar logic you suggest for Linux developers.

No, the fixes for vulnerabilities is the responsibility of whoever wrote
the software in the first place. How is Joe Programmer going to fix
Windows even if he wanted to?

Excactly, therefore those open source projects on Sourceforge are completely
legit.

The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect everything to
work out of the box

Had no idea I was so demanding.

No, it's fine to ask that your OS work like you think it should, but you
must direct your disappointment of hardware support to the hardware OEMs.
They have the duty to support the OS. Ask _them_ why their hardware doesn't
work in Linux, and not the Linux community why Linux doesn't work with
their hardware.

Honestly, now that we have IBM, HP, Novell, and to a lesser degree, Sun
onboard, I think Linux has a very bright future.

I hope so too. I hope it gets so good that people will abandon Windows
in droves. Wouldn't that be nice? I'm dead serious... a program that
good would be wonderful. Not seeing it yet.

I totally agree with everyone that Linux is far from complete, and many
might, and probably should continue to shy away from it. I don't claim that
everyone should jump on the Linux bandwagon. However, it's been a fine OS
for me, particularly the last 2 years. I won't give up my Windows machine
just yet, but I'm spending less time using it, and more time discovering
Linux.

Matt wrote:

Bill Turner wrote:

How is Joe Programmer going to fix
Windows even if he wanted to?

Good point.

Someone already did. Months before Microsoft finally released the IE URL
spoofing flaw, someone posted a fix on the internet. They weren't
associated with Microsoft, either.

Matt wrote in news:2oYxd.14$hC4.4
@news01.roc.ny:

So if he thinks ahead a bit, an alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt reader
doesn't have to go so far out of his way to try Linux.


__________________________________________________ _________

Yes, but we were talking about the average guy, not readers of this
group.

--
BT

John Doe wrote:

Windows marketshare has been over 90% for at least five years and has
continued rising.

That's false. Market share for the latest version is always rising, if
that's what you mean. Notably, XP is now displacing 98SE. When you add
up all the market shares of all MS OSes, you find that the total MS
share is falling.

See http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

From March '03 to Dec '04, total Windows share went from 93.2% to 89.9%.

BTW, note that IE share has dropped from 84.1% to 71.7% this year.

But the more important thing to notice is that the big hardware makers
are lining up against Microsoft:

http://osdl.org/
http://groups.osdl.org/osdl_members/osdl_roster/