PCI-Express question...

Hi folks!

I am thinking of building myself a computer using,

1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU)
2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard)
3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram)
4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive)
5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's hardware
guide, it is one of the best for now.

As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't decide
if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come out, or I should
just build the computer now simply using what is available, meaning

6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet on
which one to use...

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express
ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs.

I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it be
PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X connection? When
you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with PCI-Express connection.

The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video cards
come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers PCI-Express
slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology? I don't think
PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a normal PCI slot on the
motherboard. The common sense tells me that the motherboard has to
accommodate the new PCI-Express video card technology in order to take
advantage of this new advanced feature.

Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is capable of
16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though the current AGP
only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere near 8X. So, 8X is
not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will not provide any
improvement in that perspective. Does PCI-Express have anything else to
offer other than 16X so that it makes it a revolutionary advancement over
AGP slot?

Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and
motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first generation
new technology because it is not used and tested enough by the consumers to
provide perfection without "constant problems". Since PCI-Express is a new
technology, if you rush into it and build your new computer on a system that
is not proven to be reliable, you might suffer some overall system
unreliability. It is better to give some time, maybe a year or two so that
the new technology becomes a standard and widespread overall among other
manufacturers.

I like to hear about your input so that I can make better judgment on the
issue as I am only guessing depending on what I read.

Thanks.

--
Ryan Atici

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express
ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs.

Correction:

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia website, it says that Nvidia 6800
GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
6800 series of GPUs.

Sorry for the typo...

Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in that
format.

That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed benefit
to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games. No videocard
today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth available in AGP 8x.
There's a negligible difference between 8x and 4x.

Since you're building a new system.. it *may* be worth getting a PCI-Express
system. Don't expect your system to be any faster than it would if an AGP
version for gaming, however. PCI-Express (in the immediate future, again)
will really only benefit people dealing with very large files (video
editing, etc), or other bus-heavy activities, since the OTHER things in your
system will benefit from the increased bandwidth of PCI-Express, not the
videocard.

Eventually, we may need PCI-Express, but even with today's fastest
processors.. the 6800Ultras and ATI X800XTPE are still CPU-bound. A faster
bus isn't going to fix that.

Just my opinion, of course.

"Ryan Atici" wrote in message
...

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express
ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of
GPUs.

Correction:

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia website, it says that Nvidia
6800
GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
6800 series of GPUs.

Sorry for the typo...

RaceFace wrote:
Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in
that format.

That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed
benefit to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games.
No videocard today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth
available in AGP 8x. There's a negligible difference between 8x and
4x.

That may not be entirely accurate. Your statement is sort of accurate in
and of itself, but PCI Express + Two NvIdia PCI Express cards running tandem
is in the near future through their SLI technology.
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...12_174414.html

"Ryan Atici" wrote in
:

Hi folks!

I am thinking of building myself a computer using,

1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU)
2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard)
3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram)
4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive)
5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's
hardware guide, it is one of the best for now.

As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't
decide if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come
out, or I should just build the computer now simply using what is
available, meaning

6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet
on which one to use...

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is
PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
6800 series of GPUs.

I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it
be PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X
connection? When you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with
PCI-Express connection.


AGP and PCI-Express are not compatible. You cannot put an AGP card into
a PCI-Express slot and you can't put a PCI-Express card into an AGP
slot. That being said, I would wait for a PCI-Express card. Your system
is already new technology that will be apgradable for at least a couple
of years. I am specifically refering to Socket-939. If you get an AGP
card you may not be able to get a good upgrade card for more than
another year if that long. Who knows how much longer AGP will last.
Anybody know if ATI or NVIDIA are planning any new cards with AGP? If
not then the 6800 or x800 may be the best card you'll ever put in an AGP
system. AGP is a dying technology. If you can afford it, don't buy into
something that will be gone when you want to upgrade.


The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video
cards come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers
PCI-Express slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology?

Yes. A PCI-Express card will require a x16 PCI-Express slot.

I don't think PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a
normal PCI slot on the motherboard. The common sense tells me that the
motherboard has to accommodate the new PCI-Express video card
technology in order to take advantage of this new advanced feature.

That's correct. The PCI-Express video card will be x16 speed and the
normal slots will be x1 speed to start. You cannot place a PCI-Express
video card in a regular (x1) PCI-Express slot and you cannot place a
PCI-Express video card in a non-PCI-Express PCI slot. (Old)PCI and
PCI-Express are not compatible.

Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is
capable of 16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though
the current AGP only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere
near 8X. So, 8X is not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will
not provide any improvement in that perspective.

Video bus bandwidth has traditionally outstripped CPU-GPU bandwidth
requirements and PCI-Express is much faster than AGP so this will remain
true with CPI-Express. For now PCI-Express will not offer anything new.
Potentially the additional bandwidth, video and otherwise, will help
system performance. I suspect that offering PCI-Express AND AGP is a
'pain in the rear' from an engineering stand point. I know I wouldn't
want to have to support both of these busses on the same motherboard. So
the obvious/expedient choice is to make all slots variants of
PCI-Express. Besides, the hole point of PCI-Express is to replace the
old PCI/AGP bus. Nobody wants to add another bus to the list they
currently support. For now that means 1x PCI-Express slots for regular
slots (modems, NIC's, soundcards, etc.) and x16 PCI-Express slots for
video cards.

Does PCI-Express have
anything else to offer other than 16X so that it makes it a
revolutionary advancement over AGP slot?

For now PCI-Express offers enigneers an easier time designing and
building motherboards because of fewer lines to route. For consumers
PCI-Express offers the best potential for upgrading their system in the
future since regular PCI and AGP are going to become obsolete. For both
PCI-Express offers the potential for higher performance systems in the
future.

Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and
motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first
generation new technology because it is not used and tested enough by
the consumers to provide perfection without "constant problems". Since
PCI-Express is a new technology, if you rush into it and build your
new computer on a system that is not proven to be reliable, you might
suffer some overall system unreliability. It is better to give some
time, maybe a year or two so that the new technology becomes a
standard and widespread overall among other manufacturers.

I agree to a point but you should also consider what your options will
be when you next need to upgrade. If, at upgrade time, you will not care
about the cost of a new motherboard and video card (and maybe memory and
cpu) to support PCI-Express then this is a none issue. If you will care
about the cost of a new motherboard and video card then consider getting
the new stuff now.

"twobirds" wrote in message
...
RaceFace wrote:
Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in
that format.

That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed
benefit to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games.
No videocard today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth
available in AGP 8x. There's a negligible difference between 8x and
4x.

That may not be entirely accurate. Your statement is sort of accurate in
and of itself, but PCI Express + Two NvIdia PCI Express cards running
tandem
is in the near future through their SLI technology.
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...12_174414.html

Oooh, yah. That wonderful thing. If one 6800Ultra (heck, even 6800GTs in a
lot of machines) is CPU-bound (on every machine out there), how is your CPU
going to be able to feed two of them (even if it's feeding each half the
stuff) quickly enough? The extra code needed to split up the data stream
will surely take some CPU overhead as well. Their wonderful new
implementation of SLI is just a way to get people to shell out huge amounts
of money. In 2 years we may have a system that could take advantage of SLI,
but not now. And the OP would have to buy a new motherboard anyway, because
the next gen CPUs will have different pin layouts.

Just my opinion.

JS wrote:

"Ryan Atici" wrote in
:

Hi folks!

I am thinking of building myself a computer using,

1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU)
2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard)
3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram)
4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive)
5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's
hardware guide, it is one of the best for now.

As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't
decide if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come
out, or I should just build the computer now simply using what is
available, meaning

6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet
on which one to use...

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is
PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
6800 series of GPUs.

I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it
be PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X
connection? When you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with
PCI-Express connection.


AGP and PCI-Express are not compatible. You cannot put an AGP card into
a PCI-Express slot and you can't put a PCI-Express card into an AGP
slot. That being said, I would wait for a PCI-Express card. Your system
is already new technology that will be apgradable for at least a couple
of years. I am specifically refering to Socket-939. If you get an AGP
card you may not be able to get a good upgrade card for more than
another year if that long. Who knows how much longer AGP will last.
Anybody know if ATI or NVIDIA are planning any new cards with AGP? If
not then the 6800 or x800 may be the best card you'll ever put in an AGP
system. AGP is a dying technology. If you can afford it, don't buy into
something that will be gone when you want to upgrade.


The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video
cards come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers
PCI-Express slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology?

Yes. A PCI-Express card will require a x16 PCI-Express slot.

I don't think PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a
normal PCI slot on the motherboard. The common sense tells me that the
motherboard has to accommodate the new PCI-Express video card
technology in order to take advantage of this new advanced feature.

That's correct. The PCI-Express video card will be x16 speed and the
normal slots will be x1 speed to start. You cannot place a PCI-Express
video card in a regular (x1) PCI-Express slot and you cannot place a
PCI-Express video card in a non-PCI-Express PCI slot. (Old)PCI and
PCI-Express are not compatible.

Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is
capable of 16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though
the current AGP only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere
near 8X. So, 8X is not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will
not provide any improvement in that perspective.

Video bus bandwidth has traditionally outstripped CPU-GPU bandwidth
requirements and PCI-Express is much faster than AGP so this will remain
true with CPI-Express. For now PCI-Express will not offer anything new.
Potentially the additional bandwidth, video and otherwise, will help
system performance. I suspect that offering PCI-Express AND AGP is a
'pain in the rear' from an engineering stand point.

For Intel-based systems maybe. For AMD64 put PCI Express on one link and
PCI/AGP on another.

I know I wouldn't
want to have to support both of these busses on the same motherboard. So
the obvious/expedient choice is to make all slots variants of
PCI-Express. Besides, the hole point of PCI-Express is to replace the
old PCI/AGP bus. Nobody wants to add another bus to the list they
currently support. For now that means 1x PCI-Express slots for regular
slots (modems, NIC's, soundcards, etc.) and x16 PCI-Express slots for
video cards.

Does PCI-Express have
anything else to offer other than 16X so that it makes it a
revolutionary advancement over AGP slot?

For now PCI-Express offers enigneers an easier time designing and
building motherboards because of fewer lines to route.

That's the claim. PCI-X achieves 4.8 GB/sec with 184 contacts. PCI Express
X8 offers about the same with 98. But guess what. PCI-X is a bus--those
same traces will serve one board or 6. PCI-X is point to point. 32 of
those traces have to be duplicated for a second board. So a machine with 2
PCI-Express X16 slots needs 196 traces routed. And with 6 it would need
192 traces just for the signalling pairs without regard to grounds or
power.

But how about just regular PCI? Well, bandwidth on that is about 1 GB/sec
with 124 contacts. That's the same as PCI Express x2. But X2 is not going
to be available on any board that is going to be shipping in the
foreseeable future, instead there will be X1, with half the bandwidth of
regular PCI, or X4 with twice the bandwidth on 64 contacts, 16 of which
have to be duplicated for each slot. So for 6 x4 slots we have 96 traces
to route in addition to the ones that all slots share.

So in the real world it doesn't look like PCI Express is going to make board
design any simpler.

For consumers
PCI-Express offers the best potential for upgrading their system in the
future since regular PCI and AGP are going to become obsolete.

If Intel gets their way.

For both
PCI-Express offers the potential for higher performance systems in the
future.

Higher than what? By the time something comes along that would have
saturated PCI-X Intel will be phasing out PCI Express in favor of some new
manuactured fad.

Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and
motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first
generation new technology because it is not used and tested enough by
the consumers to provide perfection without "constant problems". Since
PCI-Express is a new technology, if you rush into it and build your
new computer on a system that is not proven to be reliable, you might
suffer some overall system unreliability. It is better to give some
time, maybe a year or two so that the new technology becomes a
standard and widespread overall among other manufacturers.

I agree to a point but you should also consider what your options will
be when you next need to upgrade. If, at upgrade time, you will not care
about the cost of a new motherboard and video card (and maybe memory and
cpu) to support PCI-Express then this is a none issue. If you will care
about the cost of a new motherboard and video card then consider getting
the new stuff now.

That's the problem, you can't get the new stuff now. Not for AMD-64. You
have to choose between a bleeding-edge bus that's likely going to cause
problems or a not-quite-bleeding-edge processor with proven performance.
Everybody's promising PCI Express on AMD-64 Real Soon Now but nobody's
committed to a date beyond "Q4" which may mean that chips will be available
anytime between Oct 1 and Dec 31 if anybod meets their deadline, with
motherboards available some time after.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

RaceFace wrote:

Their wonderful new implementation of SLI is just a way to
get people to shell out huge amounts of money. In 2 years
we may have a system that could take advantage of SLI,
but not now.

It's the perfect thing. Of course you will need a window in your case to
show them off. I even wonder whether a window will cut it, I would rather
have the cards be so big that they won't fit in the case and then have open
slots in the cabinet that allow them to stick out so there won't be any
question as to whether my friends and family will be impressed as they enter
the room.

Another added benefit of SLI is that you will definitely need more power,
more cooling and that you'll have more noise, attracting more attention to
your monster machine. I think it's a wonderful idea, can't wait till it gets
on the market, this is real progress.

Martin.

I like to continue this thread with another question if I may...

I assume that, if not all, many of you have Serial ATA hard drives in your
computers.

I like to raise this question, rather a concern for me. I like to put 3
"Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA" hard drives in my
new system that I want to build. I am planning to install 3 different
operating systems on each hard drive.
1- First serial ATA drive will have Windows XP Professional
2- Second serial ATA; Windows 98 Second Edition
3- Third serial ATA; Linux operating system.

In old motherboards with IDE hard drive connection, the CMOS of the
motherboard gives you an option to choose boot sequence so that you can boot
up from any one of the hard drives of your choice, which is what I have in
my old computer.

I've never had any personal experience with new motherboards with built-in
Serial ATA connection, but the information that I am getting is that the
CMOS in ASUS motherboards doesn't offer you any option to choose boot
sequence for serial ATA hard drives. Does that apply to all ASUS
motherboards? Or ASUS corrected that problem in their current motherboards?
If not, how about other motherboard like ABIT, Gigabyte, MSI, Tyan? Do any
of those motherboards offer boot-up sequence option for Serial ATA hard
drives? I mean, why not offer an option to choose boot sequence in CMOS in
new motherboards for Serial ATA hard drives? If none of the new motherboards
with built-in Serial ATA hard drive connection offer boot-up sequence in
CMOS, how do you boot up the hard drive of your choice if you have more than
one hard drive with difference operating systems?

Thanks...

--
Ryan Atici