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#1
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
ATI HD3870 was released by some Taiwanese and Chinese companies with
non-reference printed circuit board (PCB) design. All of them are based on the non-reference PCB (developed by the Taiwanese manufacturer Triplex), e.g. http://www.unika.com.cn/index.php?op...294&cataid=232 The reference design card is shown e.g. in http://www.unika.com.cn/index.php?op...290&cataid=232 The non-reference card is shorter (7.4" vs 9" of the reference card), and it has the fan in the centre of the card, while the reference card has its fan at the distal end (away from the video connectors). It also seems to have fewer capacitors. The non-reference card occupies two PCI slots while the reference card has a one slot width. Powercolor, Colorful, Apollo, Unika and Triplex itself released the 3870 card based on the non-reference PCB. Couple of months ago, I had a look at the website of a Chinese retailer. They sold the "reference" version of the card for around US $235, and the non-reference version for US$200. Obviously, the non- reference card is cheaper because it uses a cheaper PCB (was not bought from ATI) and fewer elements. So, here is my question: Is the image quality (for which ATI card are known) is worse in the non-reference version than in the reference version ? Where should I dig for such an information ? (Searching Google, MSN and Yahoo for answers did not bring anything up, and I do not think that the manufacturers will cough up the truth.) I am asking the question because I am attracted by the short form factor of the non-reference card, but I would not buying if it has an inferior image quality. |
#2
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
When a card is designed, every component on the card has a
definite purpose. But when the card gets to manufacturing it goes through a "component reduction" process, where the company's bean counters decide what components really aren't necessary, and what components can be replaced by inferior/cheaper components. So the bottom line is, if you can find a video card model that looks true to the card's original design, it's almost certainly "better", in image quality, durability and probably both. "Beladi Nasrallah" wrote in message ... ATI HD3870 was released by some Taiwanese and Chinese companies with non-reference printed circuit board (PCB) design. All of them are based on the non-reference PCB (developed by the Taiwanese manufacturer Triplex), e.g. http://www.unika.com.cn/index.php?op...294&cataid=232 The reference design card is shown e.g. in http://www.unika.com.cn/index.php?op...290&cataid=232 The non-reference card is shorter (7.4" vs 9" of the reference card), and it has the fan in the centre of the card, while the reference card has its fan at the distal end (away from the video connectors). It also seems to have fewer capacitors. The non-reference card occupies two PCI slots while the reference card has a one slot width. Powercolor, Colorful, Apollo, Unika and Triplex itself released the 3870 card based on the non-reference PCB. Couple of months ago, I had a look at the website of a Chinese retailer. They sold the "reference" version of the card for around US $235, and the non-reference version for US$200. Obviously, the non- reference card is cheaper because it uses a cheaper PCB (was not bought from ATI) and fewer elements. So, here is my question: Is the image quality (for which ATI card are known) is worse in the non-reference version than in the reference version ? Where should I dig for such an information ? (Searching Google, MSN and Yahoo for answers did not bring anything up, and I do not think that the manufacturers will cough up the truth.) I am asking the question because I am attracted by the short form factor of the non-reference card, but I would not buying if it has an inferior image quality. |
#3
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
Beladi Nasrallah wrote:
ATI HD3870 was released by some Taiwanese and Chinese companies with non-reference printed circuit board (PCB) design. All of them are based on the non-reference PCB (developed by the Taiwanese manufacturer Triplex), e.g. http://www.unika.com.cn/index.php?op...294&cataid=232 The reference design card is shown e.g. in http://www.unika.com.cn/index.php?op...290&cataid=232 The non-reference card is shorter (7.4" vs 9" of the reference card), and it has the fan in the centre of the card, while the reference card has its fan at the distal end (away from the video connectors). It also seems to have fewer capacitors. The non-reference card occupies two PCI slots while the reference card has a one slot width. Powercolor, Colorful, Apollo, Unika and Triplex itself released the 3870 card based on the non-reference PCB. Couple of months ago, I had a look at the website of a Chinese retailer. They sold the "reference" version of the card for around US $235, and the non-reference version for US$200. Obviously, the non- reference card is cheaper because it uses a cheaper PCB (was not bought from ATI) and fewer elements. So, here is my question: Is the image quality (for which ATI card are known) is worse in the non-reference version than in the reference version ? Where should I dig for such an information ? (Searching Google, MSN and Yahoo for answers did not bring anything up, and I do not think that the manufacturers will cough up the truth.) I am asking the question because I am attracted by the short form factor of the non-reference card, but I would not buying if it has an inferior image quality. The output on a GPU, is digital, up until the DAC. There is a DAC per gun. Eventually, you get the RGB output, in analog form. From the RGB signal pads, to the VGA connector, about the only other elements in the path, would be filter components. A basic VGA might use a simple inductor on the output. To control emissions, the filter might be modified, to be a PI filter (two SMT caps plus the inductor). That shapes the output spectrum (low pass filter). I've observed some video cards in the past, even had two stage filters. But I don't see an incentive for the redesigned board, to go crazy in that area. If you have high resolution photos of both boards available, you can examine the area near the output connectors, for three instances of filter components, and make your comparison there. A change in filter design, could cause slight fuzziness at super-high analog resolutions. At 1280x1024, the difference would likely be invisible. On the digital side of things, the visual quality should be unaffected. As far as I know, there aren't any additional components on the TMDS signals feeding the DVI-D side of the DVI connector. One datasheet mentions series damping resistors for TMDS, for EMI control, but all designs should stick to the same plan. (No big money saved by removing them.) So, other than some minor differences possible in the VGA, there probably isn't too much room for concern on fuzziness of image. The smaller card may forfeit - 1) Compatibility with defacto standard cooler designs. The long card may have keepout zones, making room for various cooling options. You may want to compare the two cards, to see whether after market cooling is still possible. 2) Power converter design differences. This is where a company can save a few bucks, by redesigning the power converters. The card converts 12V, to lower voltages like 1.8V or 1.5V etc. The GPU consumes many amps, which is why the converter is multiphase. Theoretical reliability could be affected. More than one power converter is used, as more than one voltage is needed. 3) The shorter PCB saves the manufacturer some money. The layer count of the two PCBs could be different, but I doubt they'd change that. Sometimes, a minimum layer count is required, due to the needs in routing the breakout around the GPU. (The GPU has a lot of contacts on the bottom, and the copper tracks have to be routed out between them. More layers are added, to yield more routing channels for the copper tracks.) Review sites don't have the incentive, to analyze designs at that level. There have been the odd article, that looked at output issues (such as the issue with non-compliant DVI outputs on early DVI cards). But generally, all cards are treated as if they're equal now. (Just like nobody tests 2D performance of video cards any more. They're all assumed to be the same.) HTH, Paul |
#4
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
"Beladi Nasrallah" wrote in message
... Couple of months ago, I had a look at the website of a Chinese retailer. They sold the "reference" version of the card for around US $235, and the non-reference version for US$200. Obviously, the non- reference card is cheaper because it uses a cheaper PCB (was not bought from ATI) and fewer elements. Not necessarily. And prices from a couple of months ago are no longer relevant. I can't actually find a Triplex card for sale in North America, but Newegg sells the Apollo 3870 with the same short PCB and same cooler: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814140087 It is listed at the same $190 price point as the Sapphire 3870 with the reference PCB: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102719 So, here is my question: Is the image quality (for which ATI card are known) is worse in the non-reference version than in the reference version ? If you have an LCD connected via digital DVI (like most people do nowadays), then there would be no difference in image quality. If you have an analog monitor, then a cheaply-made card with cheap filters will give worse image quality. However, a mfr can use the reference PCB layout and substitute cheaper components on there at any time. Where should I dig for such an information ? (Searching Google, MSN and Yahoo for answers did not bring anything up, and I do not think that the manufacturers will cough up the truth.) Nobody evaluates analog image quality anymore, due to the prevalence of DVI monitors. The last review I've seen where this is evaluated semi-scientifically was written in 2001. Basically two reviewers looked at the monitor output and gave each card a score from 1 to 5: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=1507&p=4 -- "War is the continuation of politics by other means. It can therefore be said that politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed." |
#5
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
I used a Sapphire Reference 3870 and am using a Sapphire non-ref 3870. I
like the non-ref better. It runs cooler and overclocks much better (currently running at 850/1200 with a Thermalright HR-03 GT Heatsink + a 92mm Silenx fan; idle temp 35C, full load temp 46C). |
#6
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
I am trying to run a reference and non reference 3870 in Crossfire, I have
never had so many crashes before. I think that there must be a problem with the crossfire driver, if i turn off crossfire, games run ok. Crossfire enabled, after a short time, the monitor displays a chessboard corruption, sometimes crash to desktop, sometimes a total lock up. Hope the next driver update improves things, or one card is going on ebay for a pittance... |
#7
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
1. Make sure Catalyst AI is not disabled. This feature is needed for the
driver to automatically select the correct Crossfire operating mode for each game. 2. For troubleshooting purposes, run the game at 16x AA, which will force the Crossfire mode from Tiling to SuperAA. -- "War is the continuation of politics by other means. It can therefore be said that politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed." "Carl" wrote in message ... I am trying to run a reference and non reference 3870 in Crossfire, I have never had so many crashes before. I think that there must be a problem with the crossfire driver, if i turn off crossfire, games run ok. Crossfire enabled, after a short time, the monitor displays a chessboard corruption, sometimes crash to desktop, sometimes a total lock up. Hope the next driver update improves things, or one card is going on ebay for a pittance... |
#8
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
Thanks, I'll give it a go!
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#9
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
Cat 8.3 seems to have cured most of the problems. The reference card is
referred to as HD3870 in device manager, with the non reference card called HD3870 series. I tried Crysis on a 24" widescreen, and it ran ok on medium settings, game default. |
#10
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ATI 3870 -- reference vs. non-reference PCB ??
On Mar 4, 12:23*pm, "First of One" wrote:
If you have an analog monitor, then a cheaply-made card with cheap filters will give worse image quality. However, a mfr can use the reference PCB layout and substitute cheaper components on there at any time. Thanks, everyone, for your answers. Here I see two non-reference Radeon HD3870 cards for sale (same PCB). One of them (from Apollo) has only electrolytic capacitors, and another one (from Colorful) has only solid state capacitors. The question is, how bad is to have a video card with electrolytic capacitors ? I have done reading on the Internet, and it appears that good-quality electrolytic capacitors have a life span of 12-15 years. They degrade much quicker if exposed to heat. I imagine that such a card generates lots of heat... so that the capacitors will always be hot and may die quickly. How quickly ? I guess 5 years of life would be more than enough, 1-2 years would be a too short life. |
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