So Nvidia has cancelled production of ALL AGP cards except the 6800Gs?

"Glen" wrote in message
k.net...
"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
First of One schrieb:

I think Intel users face a more expensive upgrade, since PCIe support
is tied-in with LGA775 CPU package and DDR2 memory.


Glen wrote about a 3.8GHz P4 which is LGA775 already (there are no
3.8GHz CPUs for SOcket 478). And there are PCIe boards that use DDR
instead of DDS2, so no need to buy new RAM...

In fact it's a 3GHz Northwood P4, socket 478, running at
250FSB 1:1, 3.75GHz.

Point noted about the PCIe/DDR boards, but the issue here is
that *nothing* currently uses the full bandwidth of even AGP8X,
and no one has explained why people with these systems such
as myself should need or want PCIe, except of course to make
motherboard and video card companies rich.


PCI-e fixes some bandwidth and control issues (I think) inherent with PCI
2.n and also gives video bus bi-directional capability. Mostly, it helps
Intel, its designer, to paint itself out of a corner it put itself in years
ago. We should be used to the steady marching on of technology by now.
ISA 8 bit, ISA 16 bit, various efforts at 32 bit with Vesa Local Bus having
a brief win until PCI 1.0 at 33 mHz, then PCI 2.0 at 66 mHz, AGP 1.0, 2.0
and 3.0 versions, and now culminating in PCI-Express which help with bus
control issues and general system bandwidth, not just video card. With
PCI-e being a serialized bus, perhaps we will now look for the blending of
PCI-e and SATA into some sort of new tutti-frutti flavor of the year?
Remember, it isn't JUST about the video bus.
McG.

"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
Glen schrieb:

In fact it's a 3GHz Northwood P4, socket 478, running at
250FSB 1:1, 3.75GHz.

So it's an overclocked system....

Point noted about the PCIe/DDR boards, but the issue here is
that *nothing* currently uses the full bandwidth of even AGP8X,
and no one has explained why people with these systems such
as myself should need or want PCIe, except of course to make
motherboard and video card companies rich.

Maybe you should read my posting in which explained why PCIe indeed is
needed again...

Benjamin

Basically, it's because everyone is manufacturing FOR PCI-e now, to follow
the dominator, Intel. BUT, AMD smoothly steps in and ON the giant in its
own game He he! Love it.
McG.

"Glen" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
Glen schrieb:

In fact it's a 3GHz Northwood P4, socket 478, running at
250FSB 1:1, 3.75GHz.

So it's an overclocked system....

Point noted about the PCIe/DDR boards, but the issue here is
that *nothing* currently uses the full bandwidth of even AGP8X,
and no one has explained why people with these systems such
as myself should need or want PCIe, except of course to make
motherboard and video card companies rich.

Maybe you should read my posting in which explained why PCIe indeed is
needed again...

Good lord you're full of yourself.

Clueless and arrogant is a nasty combination.

You, Nvidia and ATI can pretend 9 out of 10 computer users
do something that requires PCIe, or AGP8X for that matter,
and it won't make a **** of difference in the reality of the
situation. Financials of these companies will spiral downward
as the gap between what consumers need and what they're
being offered gets larger every year.

And again I'll restate my original advice: buy eBay stock.

Well, nVidia and ATI both have to follow the leader, Intel, with PCI-e and
its chipsets. The other major chipset makers, in order to compete and stay
competitive, must also follow this major shift. In fact, they all agreed to
it. CPU's, GPU's, motherboards and chipsets. Intel, AMD, nVidia, ATI are
the big 4 (of the lot) that hammered this one out.
And I think that at least 8 out of 10 computer users do something that will
require PCI-e (but not AGP3.0 at 8X). They will upgrade.
McG.

"Glen" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
Glen schrieb:

Maybe you should read my posting in which explained why PCIe indeed is
needed again...


Good lord you're full of yourself.

Clueless and arrogant is a nasty combination.

You, Nvidia and ATI can pretend 9 out of 10 computer users
do something that requires PCIe, or AGP8X for that matter,
and it won't make a **** of difference in the reality of the
situation. Financials of these companies will spiral downward
as the gap between what consumers need and what they're
being offered gets larger every year.

Another proof that you just didn't understand a single word I wrote,

Uh, not even close. First you asked me if I've seen the
latest financials from ATI, implying they're making money
-- which they aren't --, then you sidestep the entire issue
of whether the industry needs a new bus standard for
video when it can't even make full use of the old one.

you're just blindly repeating the same BS again and again.

Right back at ya. Bottom line: for ATI and Nvidia to just
slam the door on the 85% of the market who still has AGP
video is nothing short of outrageous. You can try and dolly
up that fact as much as you want, it's still an incredibly ****ty
way to treat loyal customers.

Actually, the whole industry EXCEPT AMD did that to the loyal customers.
AMD did keep socket 939, both for the shift from AGP to PCI-e *and* for the
addition of X2 dual core CPU's. With Intel, if you want dual core, I
believe you MuST go PCI-e and use new memory as well. Intels trying to play
catch up with AMD is hurting its users.
With AMD, you can use any mix of A64 single core, A64 dual core, AGP8X and
PCI-e. AMD provided a far smoother transition. The GPU makers simply have
to provide both AGP and PCI-e, with AGP being phased out. At some point,
they'll stop making enthusiast products for AGP. Look for a few somewhat
less capable mainstream AGP products for years to come though. Just as ATI
and nVidia have kept some things on the shelves for the PCI bus, there will
likely be some few for AGP.
McG.

"Glen" wrote in message
k.net...
"Andrew" spamtrap@localhost. wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 08:03:37 GMT, "Glen" wrote:

The bottom line is, ATI's financial bottom line has been in the
****ter ever since they started eliminating AGP models. So
system builders certainly do not account for a majority of
total card sales.

You haven't bothered to read any of their financial statements
recently have you.

As a matter of fact I have, Andy. You obviously haven't:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/tic...1&I D=5370929

http://ir.ati.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=10...828&highlight=

Etc.

Revenues are down $60M from last year. Net loss for the quarter was
$104M. Here's why:

"The primary factor behind the decline was lower sales of performance
and enthusiast desktop products in the Add-in-Board (AIB) and retail
channels."

In other words, the market ain't biting on this PCIe nonsense.


Oh wrong, man. What the financial report from ATI itself shows me is that
this is ALL part of its transitional plan. PCI-e not even mentioned in the
report, new desktop product families released (PcI-e only, right?), delayed
wafer starts...'timing the market'. They expected lower sales in the
performance and enthusiast sector. Thing is, the industry movers and
shakers are ALL committed to PCI-express. I've / WE've been looking at
this that is happening today for the last 5 years man. I've faced it, it's
happening across the board whether I like it or not, I've accepted it. It's
Happening FULL STOP. The Transition Is Occurring.
When you look at the combined financial reports of ATI, nVidia, Intel and
AMD you'll see that this particular lull in sales is expected and accounted
for. They ALL prepared for it. It's not like we haven't had plenty of
warning, yaknow?
McG.

McGrandpa schrieb:

Why should you trash the whole computer? Simply get a new mainboard
instead...

Benjamin


some people have off the shelf name brand systems that won't let you easily
do that, AYWK mate!

Well, there are no P4 3.8Ghz brand name systems that still use AGP, all
these systems already are PCIe. The first one that incorporated PCIe
were the big brands...

With homebrew stuff, no big deal. $100 gets a fairly
usable PCI-e mobo now.

Exactly.

Benjamin

McGrandpa schrieb:

Basically, it's because everyone is manufacturing FOR PCI-e now, to follow
the dominator, Intel. BUT, AMD smoothly steps in and ON the giant in its
own game He he! Love it.

Sorry to disappoint you, but PCIe is not "intels game". Like PCI, PCIe
is an open standard that's available to everyone. PCIe has been invented
several years ago already as a result of the even at that time upcoming
limitations from the standard PCI bus...

And as AMD being smoother for the AGP-PCIe transition, that's nonsense.
The chipset makers for AMD CPUs (especially Nvidia, and also VIA, ULi
and SiS) have been as fast with PCIe chipsets as intel. With AMD, you
can use a S939 CPU with AGP and PCIe mainboards, but you can't for
Socket 754 and Socket A (there are no PCIe boards for them). Same is
valid for intel: you can use Socket 775 CPUs with PCIe and also with AGP
boards (yes, there are both), but the older Socket 478 has no path to PCIe.

The AMD platform is in no way better regarding compatibility
with/availability for AGP than intel...

Benjamin

What exactly are your framerates in Doom3? I'd love to hear since I've got a
9800 Pro and an Athlon XP-M @ 2577Mhz. I'll bet you're not getting ANYWHERE
close to double the framerates my rig's getting. I'll bet you're not even
getting 25% more framerates than my rig (with your 9800 Pro in your A64
3200+) in Doom3.

--
Doug
"First of One" wrote in message
...
If this were several months ago, a S939 AGP mobo made sense. I replaced my
AthlonXP 1600+ with an A64 3200+ and actually noticed doubled framerates
in
Doom 3, while keeping the Radeon 9800Pro.

Now is not a good time to "want" a S939 mobo, with Socket M2 coming in a
month or so (and probably *requiring* DDR2). nVidia timed the
discontinuation of the 6800GT/Ultra GPUs correctly. By the time most of
the
existing inventory is exhausted, few people would spend $300 on an AGP
card.

And once Socket M2 gains a foothold, DDR1 DIMM prices will rise due to
reduced production. Spot pricing for DDR2 chips today are already lower
than DDR1 chips, thanks to Intel's market dominance. One fewer reason to
keep a "legacy" system up-to-date.

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."

"Larry Roberts" wrote in message
...
What if I already had a 6800GT, and didn't want to move up to
a 7800GT/GTX just yet, but did want a new Athlon64, or FX CPU. There
are a good many Socket 939 boards with AGP.

? I had an AthlonXP 1600+ (1.4 GHz, 133 FSB) on a cheap ECS board that did
not permit multiplier adjustment. Going from that to a A64 3200+ (2.0 GHz,
200 FSB) doubled from framerates in Doom 3. The game is now borderline
fillrate-limited.

Anyway, if you really wanted know:

Doom3 1.3.1302 (thru ROE expansion)
800x600 Hi Q - 58 fps
640x480 Med Q - 70 fps

That's with the 9800Pro 128MB at 415/732 running Cat 5.9. The CPU is running
at stock speeds because of the fillrate-limited condition in games, though I
suppose it can be a decent overclocker (90 nm Winchester, 1.38V default) if
pushed.

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."

"pigdos" wrote in message
. ..
What exactly are your framerates in Doom3? I'd love to hear since I've got
a 9800 Pro and an Athlon XP-M @ 2577Mhz. I'll bet you're not getting
ANYWHERE close to double the framerates my rig's getting. I'll bet you're
not even getting 25% more framerates than my rig (with your 9800 Pro in
your A64 3200+) in Doom3.

"First of One" wrote in message
...
If this were several months ago, a S939 AGP mobo made sense. I replaced
my
AthlonXP 1600+ with an A64 3200+ and actually noticed doubled framerates
in
Doom 3, while keeping the Radeon 9800Pro.

Indeed, this is especially poor for intel users who already have a 3.0Ghz+
CPU, theres no critical reason to upgrade the CPU but you have too just get
PCIe to get a new gfx card