Canon Pixma IP4000 cartridge query

PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of dots.
It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
or forums?



For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is indicated.
It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other level prior to
that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low and empty and none
of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to get
yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are trying to
act so knowlegable about.

You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type
of cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of
mistake on something simple then I am suspect of anything you post.
Especially since you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.

Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.

As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of course)
result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer and place
a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely covered) in that
same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the status monitor
will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the optical sensor no
longer reflects back through the prism, so it logically assumes you
placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There are three detected
levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.



That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover it
assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels when the
cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would have picked
up on this by now.

Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty
cart? The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the
cover is opened and closed.

And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
level????

It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.


I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a small
amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is incorrect.

Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it
up if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
brush up on the MP780's design.

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
or forums?



For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to
get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are
trying to act so knowlegable about.

You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type of
cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of mistake on
something simple then I am suspect of anything you post. Especially since
you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.


Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but here
is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to which I
responded.....

"I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
documents."

Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would be
quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of BCI-3's
and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.

This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that same
thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.

Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.


I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works. Whether
you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose sleep over
it.

As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of
course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer
and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely
covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the
status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the
optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so it
logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.



That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
have picked up on this by now.

Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty cart?
The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover is
opened and closed.


Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
again.

And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
level????

It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.


I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a
small amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is
incorrect.

Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it up
if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
brush up on the MP780's design.



The ink was brought up 'again' as you stated it did not use any when the lid
was opened and closed.
I did not want the unsuspecting newbie to take you inaccurate info as fact.
I am hardly here to impress you, though it would be helpful if someone
educated you a bit. As for me, I am quite familiar with the MP780 and many
other printers design and operation.

About how many 8x10 fotos can you get once the No ink warning pops up
without having to worry about damaging the print head?

Tom Klimas wrote:

Taliesyn wrote in
:



PC Medic wrote:


"MB_" wrote in message
...



We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
the computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
ink low and ink out warnings.


No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL
cartridges (any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
(just plastic, aint' it?).





That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
delivery system was intentionally kept simple.

PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

PC Medic wrote:

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...


Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
or forums?



For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to
get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are
trying to act so knowlegable about.

You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type of
cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of mistake on
something simple then I am suspect of anything you post. Especially since
you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.



Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but here
is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to which I
responded.....

"I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
documents."

Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would be
quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of BCI-3's
and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.

Here's the words from your own keyboard:

"Just an FYI, the MP780 uses BCI-6 not '3'. While they will fit and
will not cause physical harm using them may result in slight color shift
in photos."

The author of the thread said he had an i960 for printing photos so my
reply was for black and white printing only since that is his main use
of the MP780. I guess you missed that part of the thread. I never said
the MP780 didn't use BCI-6 carts but you specifically said it doesn't
use the "3" carts. Are you really so anal to get hung up over me not
adding the "Bk" to the cart designation?!?! Also, last time I checked
(I have both carts here at my desk) the "3" carts are a different size
than the "6" carts and don't fit in the same space. You were not wrong
once but twice in that post.

This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that same
thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.

This gave me a chuckle coming from you.

Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.



I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works. Whether
you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose sleep over
it.

Now I just read a thread from Tom Klimas in this group that states:

"That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
delivery system was intentionally kept simple."

Now Tom says he got this information directly from a Canon tech. Who do
I believe now?

As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of
course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer
and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely
covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the
status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the
optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so it
logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.



That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
have picked up on this by now.

Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty cart?
The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover is
opened and closed.



Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
again.

Here goes Captain Anal again.

And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
level????

It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.


I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a
small amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is
incorrect.

Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it up
if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
brush up on the MP780's design.




The ink was brought up 'again' as you stated it did not use any when the lid
was opened and closed.
I did not want the unsuspecting newbie to take you inaccurate info as fact.
I am hardly here to impress you, though it would be helpful if someone
educated you a bit. As for me, I am quite familiar with the MP780 and many
other printers design and operation.

I can see you're REAL familiar with the MP780. As for you not being
here to impress me, don't worry, you haven't.

"measekite" wrote in message
.. .
About how many 8x10 fotos can you get once the No ink warning pops up
without having to worry about damaging the print head?


I am assuming you mean once the 'Low Ink' warning pops up. There is
unfortunately no set answer to this as it will depend on media/paper being
used (as this affects amount of ink being dispersed), what ink is low (some
are used more often than others) and the color depth of the images being
printed. I have personally gotten as many as 15 and as few as 5 8x10's
after a low ink warning on both an iP3000 and an iP4000.

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

PC Medic wrote:

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...


Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels
then the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
to determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup
threads or forums?



For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count
does not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set
on believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay
to get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you
are trying to act so knowlegable about.

You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type
of cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of
mistake on something simple then I am suspect of anything you post.
Especially since you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.



Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but
here is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to
which I responded.....

"I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
documents."

Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would
be quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of
BCI-3's and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.

Here's the words from your own keyboard:

"Just an FYI, the MP780 uses BCI-6 not '3'. While they will fit and will
not cause physical harm using them may result in slight color shift in
photos."

The author of the thread said he had an i960 for printing photos so my
reply was for black and white printing only since that is his main use of
the MP780. I guess you missed that part of the thread. I never said the
MP780 didn't use BCI-6 carts but you specifically said it doesn't use the
"3" carts. Are you really so anal to get hung up over me not adding the
"Bk" to the cart designation?!?! Also, last time I checked (I have both
carts here at my desk) the "3" carts are a different size than the "6"
carts and don't fit in the same space. You were not wrong once but twice
in that post.


BCI-3 and BCI-6Bk are different in size. BCI-3 and BCI-6 Colors will in fact
fit the same slots.
Again you did not initially specify BK, C, Y, M, PC, PM R, G etc, etc.......



This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that
same thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.

This gave me a chuckle coming from you.




Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.



I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works.
Whether you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose
sleep over it.

Now I just read a thread from Tom Klimas in this group that states:

"That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
delivery system was intentionally kept simple."

Now Tom says he got this information directly from a Canon tech. Who do I
believe now?


Guess you need to read some more threads to figure that out. Or perhaps try
some Canon Technical Service Manuals, they are chock full of info.

The software does not determine the ink out it only displays the pop-up
after receiving the appropriate signal from the hardware.
The hardware does use a 'dot count' (print usage) after low ink sensor is
triggered, but DOES NOT use a timer. Software plays no part in the detection
at all and again only knows what the hardware tells it. (Though on several
models you can send a hard signal via the driver to reset the ROM's ink
out/low error). Exactly why one of the troubleshooting steps is to isolate
the unit from the computer to determine if the printer itself continues to
display the ink out error (indicated by sequence of flashes from power
light).

I work on these printers every day, am familiar with them and hate to say
it, but Tom got some (partially) bum info. Nope, no timer, no software.
Think about it (if you can), if a printer is networked and you print 250
pages from Computer A how the hell is the driver on Computer B to know this
and adjust its 'software' to indicate the same ink level? Remmeber they kept
it simple here!


As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and
place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will
(of course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the
printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because
the light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the
prism, so it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace
the empty. There are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and
it wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the
center position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability
to know what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.



That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
have picked up on this by now.

Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty
cart? The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover
is opened and closed.



Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
again.

Here goes Captain Anal again.


ROTFLMA
The rest of your gibberish has been removed and ignored as has most that
came before it.

measekite wrote:

About how many 8x10 fotos can you get once the No ink warning pops up
without having to worry about damaging the print head?


You really shouldn't print after the "No Ink" warning". It's there to
protect the print head. If I'm in the process of printing a photo and
a warning pops up, I will stop after the print and make the mandatory
change of cartridges. But I've only ever hit "out" once and I can't
remember why because I have a policy of changing ALL the BCI-6 car-
tridges as soon as one color indicates "low". I never wait till I'm flat
"out". Changing them all as a unit is much more convenient than stopping
every few minutes to change yet another color. The large black isn't
included in the set rotation as it operates on a different frequency.
Later I'll sit down, refill the whole set and place them in storage.
Right now I rotate 3 sets, and have two others on standby, but not
in rotation. Sound confusing? :-)

Anyway, with all these cartridges, you can see why I have no need for
squeezing every last drop of cyan, magenta or yellow out any one of them.

-Taliesyn


Tom Klimas wrote:



That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the
driver uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about
how much ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use"
(as determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
delivery system was intentionally kept simple.

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

PC Medic wrote:

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...


Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels
then the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
to determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup
threads or forums?



For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count
does not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set
on believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay
to get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you
are trying to act so knowlegable about.

You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type
of cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of
mistake on something simple then I am suspect of anything you post.
Especially since you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.



Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but
here is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to
which I responded.....

"I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
documents."

Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would
be quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of
BCI-3's and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.

Here's the words from your own keyboard:

"Just an FYI, the MP780 uses BCI-6 not '3'. While they will fit and will
not cause physical harm using them may result in slight color shift in
photos."

The author of the thread said he had an i960 for printing photos so my
reply was for black and white printing only since that is his main use of
the MP780. I guess you missed that part of the thread. I never said the
MP780 didn't use BCI-6 carts but you specifically said it doesn't use the
"3" carts. Are you really so anal to get hung up over me not adding the
"Bk" to the cart designation?!?! Also, last time I checked (I have both
carts here at my desk) the "3" carts are a different size than the "6"
carts and don't fit in the same space. You were not wrong once but twice
in that post.

This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that
same thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.

This gave me a chuckle coming from you.

Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.



I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works.
Whether you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose
sleep over it.

Now I just read a thread from Tom Klimas in this group that states:

"That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
delivery system was intentionally kept simple."

Now Tom says he got this information directly from a Canon tech. Who do I
believe now?

As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and
place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will
(of course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the
printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because
the light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the
prism, so it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace
the empty. There are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and
it wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the
center position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability
to know what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.



That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
have picked up on this by now.

Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty
cart? The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover
is opened and closed.



Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
again.

Here goes Captain Anal again.

And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is
to do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some
ink. Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in
fact result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated,
why on earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to
inspect the level????

It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt
a cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until
the low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.


I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a
small amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is
incorrect.

Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it up
if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
brush up on the MP780's design.




The ink was brought up 'again' as you stated it did not use any when the
lid was opened and closed.
I did not want the unsuspecting newbie to take you inaccurate info as
fact.
I am hardly here to impress you, though it would be helpful if someone
educated you a bit. As for me, I am quite familiar with the MP780 and
many other printers design and operation.

I can see you're REAL familiar with the MP780. As for you not being here
to impress me, don't worry, you haven't.

DO EVERYONE A FAVOUR AND BUY AN EPSON!!!

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two different
statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then the printer
shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was installed and would
therefor not indicate levels accurately when a cartridge is empty since it
hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of dots. It seems to me that the Canon
printers rely on the prism reading to determin ink levels.

It actually does both. If you look at the cartridge you will see a foam area
and a free ink area. The prism monitors the ink in the free ink area. When
this area gets empty the foam still will have ink. It is this ink that is then
drop-counted. At least that is what I would do if I had their system....

- Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

"Bob Headrick" wrote in message
...

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
to determin ink levels.

It actually does both. If you look at the cartridge you will see a foam
area and a free ink area. The prism monitors the ink in the free ink
area. When this area gets empty the foam still will have ink. It is this
ink that is then drop-counted. At least that is what I would do if I had
their system....

- Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP


Ohhh...now you've gone and done it! :0)